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Wolfman Jake
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560.  Posted: Sun Sep 17, 2006 2:51 pm Post subject: |
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| AA Bob wrote: | Imagine that the "ideal" scroll speed is 150-200 (I know it's a lot higher for many, but let's just pretend  ). When bag is given the ideal scroll speed, people will find it no harder to pass than most 8s. When Max 300 is given the ideal scroll speed, it's still going to be harder to pass than any 9. That's what makes bag's gimmick so much worse than Max 300's. |
But there really is no "ideal" scroll speed. The standard as far as Konami is concerned, is x1, and it should be really. People have all sorts of different preferences, but Konami has to rate step charts based on the default settings. You're even FORCED to play x1 if you want to play Oni courses. Konami goofed by not hard programming a speed mod lockout on bag. Still, using a speed mod on bag is quite obviously making your job easier, but that's your choice to make, just like using little/cut or "turn" to change some harder crossovers into easier patterns. Again, arrow presentation is a legit form of challenge. Even Roxor acknowledges this facet of difficulty by disqualifying scores earned with C-mods. Taking all of the BPM changes and stops out of a song means you really didn't clear the song, or at least you really didn't earn your score because you made it easier to rack up points.
| AA Bob wrote: |
Have you noticed that all of the world's best players use the bar on any reasonably difficult song? Not having to worry as much about balance makes nearly everything about the game easier. Some of the best players are pretty good no-bar, but on difficult songs, their bar score will always be higher. Say what you want about the bar, but the fact is that it's an excellent tool for scoring higher on difficult songs. |
I'm not talking about tournament play or scoring per se. Since there are people out there who will play that way, you'll have to do so as well to be competitive, if that's what you care about. You said it yourself, though. It's done to make scoring EASIER, it takes away another valid aspect of the game that introduces challenge. None of this is inconsistent with what I said earlier. If you take on the mentality of bar raping for score, though, you find exactly the problem I mentioned earlier: A group of players who have decided that the only challenge is foot speed (and PA), and to hell with all the rest of it. That's just "unfair." Konami designed a DANCE SIMULATION SERIES with DDR, and bar raping looks like anything BUT dancing. Bar raping is your choice, it's your money to use as you see fit, but it definitely makes the game EASIER by removing the DANCING aspect of what is supposed to be a DANCING GAME. What I find irritating is players who cannot admit to this, not ones who simply play like this.
| AA Bob wrote: | | Where are these players? I've never seen anyone with that mentality on these forums. In any case, people who think like that are probably pretty bad at the game, since they're bad at double stepping and crossovers. |
Again, you just aren't paying enough attention to see these people, and well you probably shouldn't, because I can see you agree that their opinions are laughable.
| AA Bob wrote: | In general, ITG charts don't have the characteristics you mentioned above. A few examples...
Bend Your Mind, Driving Force Classical: Eighth note streams which, although they can be double-stepped, are a lot more fun with crossovers.
Hardcore of the North: Very few candle steps, but still has fairly complicated patterns.
Pandemonium, Delirium: Patterns are laden with candle steps, and are difficult even with the lack of crossovers.
The Beginning, Mythology: TONS of crossovers, steps are pretty difficult/draining.
I could go on, but I think you see the point: ITG is not about moving your feet over and over again to an LDUR pattern as fast as you can. Its charts, just like many of DDR's, are very complex. |
Actually, I stand by most of my ITG assessment and offer that, at least in ITG1 (I've yet to see an ITG2 machine), DDR has ITG LICKED as far as complicated step patterns go (i.e. crossovers, turns, spins, and judicious use of double steps, which really are stylish when done right). Hard charts were almost universally boring because you could literally complete a chart by facing the same direction the entire time (usually face forward, but sometimes left). Expert charts that simply added 16ths into the patterns faced the same problems. Complicated arrow orientations were NOT utilized very often. I've been told that this has been addressed to a degree with ITG2, but again, I've never seen for myself.
| AA Bob wrote: | 12s: Yeah, there are 16th streams, but so what? A lot of people find them fun. They aren't a necessity, either; Tell and Euphoria have very few of these streams.
11s: Some 16th streams, but not nearly as many as in 12s.
10s: Extended 16th streams are pretty rare. |
I think you underestimate how often the difference between a Hard chart and an Expert chart in ITG is a simple matter of putting 16ths in between the 8ths from the Hard chart, but we'll just leave it at that.
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Cutriss
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| 561. Posted: Sun Sep 17, 2006 3:31 pm Post subject: |
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| Wolfman Jake wrote: | | Actually, I stand by most of my ITG assessment and offer that, at least in ITG1 (I've yet to see an ITG2 machine), DDR has ITG LICKED as far as complicated step patterns go (i.e. crossovers, turns, spins, and judicious use of double steps, which really are stylish when done right). Hard charts were almost universally boring because you could literally complete a chart by facing the same direction the entire time (usually face forward, but sometimes left). Expert charts that simply added 16ths into the patterns faced the same problems. Complicated arrow orientations were NOT utilized very often. I've been told that this has been addressed to a degree with ITG2, but again, I've never seen for myself. |
It's pretty hard to get a good sampling in ITG1. I played it for a while for my review on this site, and I did find some good stepcharts which I appreciated. The mines help shake things up a bit. I didn't play any Doubles charts though.
I've seen some charts where some arrows were just thrown out there to crank up the difficulty, but I've also seen them where it was tastefully made tricky or difficult. Since I really haven't played ITG since the review, I'll just have to go back to the only chart I remember, being Lemmings On The Run. At any rate, I know that's not the only example of things, and once I get my Stepmania box off the ground, I'll likely get a lot more exposure to things and will be able to comment on a more informed basis. So, yeah, I'd say it's not pandemic to In The Groove, but it might be more prevalent in certain song genres. | Wolfman Jake wrote: | | Konami goofed by not hard programming a speed mod lockout on bag. |
You can tell it's something that probably crossed their mind at one point though, based on how DS feat DCT and DS feat TKD rate up songs if you use a speed modifier on them. Of course, nowadays people play stuff on 2x and 3x just because.
If they ever did this (and I don't see that they ever would, as it'd have to be applied somewhat arbitrarily), they'd probably also have to go the other way, if they ever make 0.25x and 0.5x selectable.
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AA Bob
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| 562. Posted: Sun Sep 17, 2006 4:04 pm Post subject: |
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| Wolfman Jake wrote: | | But there really is no "ideal" scroll speed. |
My point is that bag has easy steps and a low scroll speed, while Max 300 has hard steps and a high scroll speed. Bag's gimmick is much worse than Max 300's, since the reading difficulty is the only thing that makes it a 10.
| Wolfman Jake wrote: | | Konami goofed by not hard programming a speed mod lockout on bag. |
There are very, very few people who would support something like this. How many people actually play bag on x1?
| Wolfman Jake wrote: | | That's just "unfair." Konami designed a DANCE SIMULATION SERIES with DDR, and bar raping looks like anything BUT dancing. |
Don't let the name fool you; DDR isn't about dancing. It's about hitting arrows with your feet and being graded on your accuracy, which is why the bar and speed mods are so popular.
| Wolfman Jake wrote: | | Actually, I stand by most of my ITG assessment and offer that, at least in ITG1 (I've yet to see an ITG2 machine), DDR has ITG LICKED as far as complicated step patterns go (i.e. crossovers, turns, spins, and judicious use of double steps, which really are stylish when done right). Hard charts were almost universally boring because you could literally complete a chart by facing the same direction the entire time (usually face forward, but sometimes left). |
The Hard charts suck, I'll give you that. But I gave you several examples of good ITG1 Expert charts, and as I said before, I could give you more.
| Wolfman Jake wrote: | | I think you underestimate how often the difference between a Hard chart and an Expert chart in ITG is a simple matter of putting 16ths in between the 8ths from the Hard chart, but we'll just leave it at that. |
Often, Hard and Expert charts follow completely different parts of the music. A Hard chart might follow the bass while the Expert chart follows the synth. There is a HUGE difference between Hard and Expert charts in ITG. It's obvious that they put a lot more work into the Expert charts (which, incidentally, is why I didn't like ITG until I was able to do 10s and 11s).
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| Emptyeye wrote: | | So um, is it bad that awhile ago I was watching Family Guy, and when Quagmire came on, I thought something to the effect of "Whoa, It's AA Bob!" (I don't remember if the exact thought was "It's AA Bob" or "It's AA Bob's avatar", but I don't think it matters in this case)? |
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Auspher
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| 563. Posted: Sun Sep 17, 2006 4:19 pm Post subject: |
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| AA Bob and Wolfman Jake wrote: | | a Huge 10 footer gimmick and difficulty arguement that is now turning to ITG |
Alright kiddies, calm down. Konami put in these gimmicks with the intention of making the songs CHALLENGING and interesting, to say the least. They made the charts and handed out 10 foot ratings, so get used to it now as it will continue on with the DDR series. Could we please stick with the thread title, or stay on a subject related to it in any way?
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Cutriss
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| 564. Posted: Sun Sep 17, 2006 4:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Max.(period) wrote: | | Alright kiddies, calm down. Konami put in these gimmicks with the intention of making the songs CHALLENGING and interesting, to say the least. They made the charts and handed out 10 foot ratings, so get used to it now as it will continue on with the DDR series. Could we please stick with the thread title, or stay on a subject related to it in any way? |
Kill a civil DDR vs ITG debate over a minor technicality? No way.
As long as it stays civil, I'm fine with it, and anyway, there's not a lot to discuss with the patch at this point.
Amusingly enough, I haven't seen one person talk about how the patch affected the timing and sync of the songs. Everyone's been too busy creaming/fuming over Fascination remix to care I guess. >.>
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OLRmy Sai-kun
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| 565. Posted: Sun Sep 17, 2006 4:35 pm Post subject: |
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BREAKING NEWS: Felm can be found (along with the stepchart :3) at Bemanistyle.
Clean version rocks \o/
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Synaesthesia
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| 566. Posted: Sun Sep 17, 2006 4:36 pm Post subject: |
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| Wolfman Jake wrote: | | DDR has ITG LICKED as far as complicated step patterns go (i.e. crossovers, turns, spins, and judicious use of double steps, which really are stylish when done right) |
Your ignorance amuses me to no end.
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Wolfman Jake
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| 567. Posted: Sun Sep 17, 2006 4:45 pm Post subject: |
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| AA Bob wrote: | | Wolfman Jake wrote: | | Konami goofed by not hard programming a speed mod lockout on bag. |
There are very, very few people who would support something like this. How many people actually play bag on x1? |
People who utilize it as another 10 instead of writing it off because they think they know better.
| AA Bob wrote: | | Don't let the name fool you; DDR isn't about dancing. It's about hitting arrows with your feet and being graded on your accuracy, which is why the bar and speed mods are so popular. |
Heh, heh, heh. That's your short-sighted interpretation. Remember when people actually freestyled? It's a dancing game.
| AA Bob wrote: | | The Hard charts suck, I'll give you that. But I gave you several examples of good ITG1 Expert charts, and as I said before, I could give you more. |
Yes, Expert is what carried ITG 1. I used Hard because it's usually a more direct comparison to DDR's Heavy/Expert/Challenge difficulty, though in reality, DDR's top difficulty overlaps both ITG's Hard and Expert to substantial degrees.
To spare us one more quote block, yes, there are a number of inspired Expert charts in ITG1, but there are others that are simply like adding MORE to a Hard chart, or possibly, Hard charts where they simply took Expert charts and removed steps or other features to bring the difficulty down "for cheap." Now, let's segue back from this DDRvITG thing. How did that happen again?
EDIT (Sorry, one more):
| Synaesthesia wrote: | | Wolfman Jake wrote: | | DDR has ITG LICKED as far as complicated step patterns go (i.e. crossovers, turns, spins, and judicious use of double steps, which really are stylish when done right) |
Your ignorance amuses me to no end. |
Synestehsia, do you make it your mission to be the most abrasive and ignorant little troll here? Nice job of editing out all of the qualifications that came before that statement and afterwards, you know, the ones that make it clear I'm talking about ITG1 and NOT ITG2, with which I admittedly do not yet have first hand experience? Everything I said was INDEED an issue with ITG1, the fans told Roxor, and they tried harder the next time around. End of story. What exactly IS your problem, anyway?
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Last edited by Wolfman Jake on Sun Sep 17, 2006 4:52 pm, edited 2 times in total |
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Auspher
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| 568. Posted: Sun Sep 17, 2006 4:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Wolfman Jake wrote: | | Now, let's segue back from this DDRvITG thing. How did that happen again? |
I would prefer not to know..
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MIKE from Santee
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| 569. Posted: Sun Sep 17, 2006 4:52 pm Post subject: |
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| AA Bob wrote: | | Wolfman Jake wrote: | | Konami goofed by not hard programming a speed mod lockout on bag. |
There are very, very few people who would support something like this. How many people actually play bag on x1? |
I play EVERYTHING on x1 and I totally support Wolfman Jake on this and everything he has said on this issue so much that I decided I'll post something here after pretty much posting nothing for the last 2 years.
| AA Bob wrote: | | Wolfman Jake wrote: | | That's just "unfair." Konami designed a DANCE SIMULATION SERIES with DDR, and bar raping looks like anything BUT dancing. |
Don't let the name fool you; DDR isn't about dancing. It's about hitting arrows with your feet and being graded on your accuracy, which is why the bar and speed mods are so popular. |
I'm sorry, but this is only your opinion. I'm sure that I'm backed by everyone who loved to watch or participate in freestyle tournaments from 1998 to around 2004 when I say that this game is a dancing game. Don't let the bar fool you.
It's really a shame that the current generation of players doesn't see any value in playing the game without speed mods or the bar, or in playing modes other than single expert. The standards for "mastery" of this game nowadays are really low.
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Scintilla
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| 570. Posted: Sun Sep 17, 2006 4:57 pm Post subject: |
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| Cutriss wrote: | | Amusingly enough, I haven't seen one person talk about how the patch affected the timing and sync of the songs. Everyone's been too busy creaming/fuming over Fascination remix to care I guess. >.> |
| Catastrophe, on the previous page, wrote: | I saved the best for last.  The timing is perfect! |
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AA Bob
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| 571. Posted: Sun Sep 17, 2006 5:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Wolfman Jake wrote: | | AA Bob wrote: | | Wolfman Jake wrote: | | Konami goofed by not hard programming a speed mod lockout on bag. |
There are very, very few people who would support something like this. How many people actually play bag on x1? |
People who utilize it as another 10 instead of writing it off because they think they know better. |
Again, how many people actually play bag on x1? I imagine that if Konami were to force x1 on bag, the general reaction would be outrage.
And about the freestyling thing: I didn't think I needed to say this, but freestyling is completely irrelevant in this argument. Freestylers play the game completely differently. If this was about freestyling, we wouldn't be discussing charts at all; freestylers usually play on easier difficulties and memorize their routine (meaning that reading gimmicks don't matter). And more importantly:
| Wolfman Jake wrote: | | Heh, heh, heh. That's your short-sighted interpretation. Remember when people actually freestyled? It's a dancing game. |
| MIKE from Santee wrote: | | I'm sorry, but this is only your opinion. I'm sure that I'm backed by everyone who loved to watch or participate in freestyle tournaments from 1998 to around 2004 when I say that this game is a dancing game. |
So not only is freestyling irrelevant to this argument, it's irrelevant and dead! It's worse than someone saying "remember back before DDRMax when we had no speed mods? Yeah, DDR is a x1 game."
| Wolfman Jake wrote: | | To spare us one more quote block, yes, there are a number of inspired Expert charts in ITG1, but there are others that are simply like adding MORE to a Hard chart, or possibly, Hard charts where they simply took Expert charts and removed steps or other features to bring the difficulty down "for cheap." |
If there are any charts like that, there are very few of them. If you have any evidence to the contrary, I'd like to see it.
| Wolfman Jake wrote: | | Now, let's segue back from this DDRvITG thing. How did that happen again? |
If I remember right, it started with me bitching about FELM. 
| MIKE from Santee wrote: | | It's really a shame that the current generation of players doesn't see any value in playing the game without speed mods or the bar, or in playing modes other than single expert. The standards for "mastery" of this game nowadays are really low. |
I assume that wasn't directed at me...
Edit:
| Cutriss wrote: | | Kill a civil DDR vs ITG debate over a minor technicality? No way. |
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| Emptyeye wrote: | | So um, is it bad that awhile ago I was watching Family Guy, and when Quagmire came on, I thought something to the effect of "Whoa, It's AA Bob!" (I don't remember if the exact thought was "It's AA Bob" or "It's AA Bob's avatar", but I don't think it matters in this case)? |
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Wolfman Jake
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| 572. Posted: Sun Sep 17, 2006 5:28 pm Post subject: |
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AA Bob, the fact that DDR was and could be played freestyle is still proof positive that it IS a dancing game, regardless of whether or not anyone currently does so. Think of it this way. Years from now, when no one is playing DDR anymore, will it have never been a game period? Also consider that DDR contains lots of dance and dancelike-substitute music, dancing characters, is called Dance Dance Revolution/Dancing Stage, and is labeled by Konami as a "dance simulation game."
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AA Bob
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| 573. Posted: Sun Sep 17, 2006 5:41 pm Post subject: |
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Freestyle may be dead, but it doesn't matter - freestyle is irrelevant, and I've already given my reasons for that.
I hesitate to call DDR "dancing" because all you're doing is stepping rhythmically on four squares.
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| Emptyeye wrote: | | So um, is it bad that awhile ago I was watching Family Guy, and when Quagmire came on, I thought something to the effect of "Whoa, It's AA Bob!" (I don't remember if the exact thought was "It's AA Bob" or "It's AA Bob's avatar", but I don't think it matters in this case)? |
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cfusionpm
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| 574. Posted: Sun Sep 17, 2006 5:41 pm Post subject: |
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| AA Bob wrote: | | MIKE from Santee wrote: | | I'm sorry, but this is only your opinion. I'm sure that I'm backed by everyone who loved to watch or participate in freestyle tournaments from 1998 to around 2004 when I say that this game is a dancing game. |
So not only is freestyling irrelevant to this argument, it's irrelevant and dead! It's worse than someone saying "remember back before DDRMax when we had no speed mods? Yeah, DDR is a x1 game." |
do you have any idea who you're talking to?
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Synaesthesia
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| 575. Posted: Sun Sep 17, 2006 5:42 pm Post subject: |
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I cut that out because that was the only part relevant. So you haven't played ITG2, whatever, let's just deal in ITG1 then. Point out to me stepcharts in DDR that are "more complicated" than Oasis Expert, Disconnected Mobius Ex, Queen of Light Ex, Bend Your Mind Ex, Mythology Ex (though only the end pulls itself in here), The Beginning Ex, even Funk Factory Ex (which was on ITG1 PS2--I suspect that is your experience with the game; if not, disregard it).
As far as what you were saying earlier about how "jock mentality etc, 'menta' challenge is there too," you seem to be disregarding what I know I've said very often before. That is, mental difficulty is an insignificant or nearly negligible difficulty, because it is overcome with no effort on the part of the player. The common example I give is that you can memorize speed/tempo changes, similar trickery, what have you, but you cannot memorize better timing (or stamina sufficient to prolong timing throughout a difficult song). Your 'synopsis' of ITG, that is, "seeing how fast you can move your feet," is also clearly incorrect. The objective of the game is to get as many Fantastics as possible. Being able to "keep up" with a fast song is utterly worthless if you can't FA it at all. Same principle applies for getting Perfects in DDR. No one cares if you can lamely pass a song, they care how close you get to a AAA. The 2 easiest ways to increase difficulty to score a song is by increasing the complexity of motion or by increasing step speed (either one still boils down to foot speed, because complex motion typically involves candle steps). Other ways include having hard-to-time rhythms (like Go 60 Go, unless your name is Omid) or by the reading tricks (which, as I've said, are easily negated). Given such options, it seems natural to expect that in order to increase the difficulty to get Fantastics consistently, you're going to nearly always increase footspeed in order to do this.
| Quote: | | What exactly IS your problem, anyway? |
Stupid people.
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AA Bob
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| 576. Posted: Sun Sep 17, 2006 5:42 pm Post subject: |
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| cfusionpm wrote: | | do you have any idea who you're talking to? |
In the context of the argument, it makes no difference.
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| Emptyeye wrote: | | So um, is it bad that awhile ago I was watching Family Guy, and when Quagmire came on, I thought something to the effect of "Whoa, It's AA Bob!" (I don't remember if the exact thought was "It's AA Bob" or "It's AA Bob's avatar", but I don't think it matters in this case)? |
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cfusionpm
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| 577. Posted: Sun Sep 17, 2006 5:44 pm Post subject: |
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mike, dont even bother; they'll never listen.
wolfman, valiant effort. you're one of the few that sees it as we do.
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AA Bob
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| 578. Posted: Sun Sep 17, 2006 5:51 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks, it's nice to see that at least one person agrees.
| cfusionpm wrote: | mike, dont even bother; they'll never listen.
wolfman, valiant effort. you're one of the few that sees it as we do. |
Ah, I wish I were as enlightened as you guys. It must be nice knowing the truth. I pity myself for being so ignorant.
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| Emptyeye wrote: | | So um, is it bad that awhile ago I was watching Family Guy, and when Quagmire came on, I thought something to the effect of "Whoa, It's AA Bob!" (I don't remember if the exact thought was "It's AA Bob" or "It's AA Bob's avatar", but I don't think it matters in this case)? |
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Auspher
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| 579. Posted: Sun Sep 17, 2006 5:53 pm Post subject: |
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Finally got a listen of Fascination~Eternal Love Mix~ and I'd have to say that it sounds pretty great, aside from it's similarity to "Disconnected". One thing that I noticed is that at the part where the voice is saying something over and over, he kinda sounds like Steve Irwin, but that's just me.
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