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LET ME SHOW YOU THEM Vivid Member


Joined: 18 Jul 2002 Location: Mountain View/Sunnyvale CA |
160. Posted: Wed May 11, 2005 7:11 pm Post subject: |
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Cutriss wrote: | And what am I? Chopped liver? |
Actually you look like a cactus to me RoXoR is doing their usual and being pretty quiet about all of this. I'm curious what they'll come out with in the next week or so, because apparently everything (home version and ITG2) are slated for "on schedule" releases. _________________
theficionado wrote: | Seriously, they should make some sort of spray for you. |
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Edible Bondage Tape Trick Member


Joined: 26 Jan 2002 Location: Kerri |
161. Posted: Wed May 11, 2005 7:16 pm Post subject: |
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Milk Chan wrote: | Whoa wait! I thought that ITG got all the legal crap out of the way so Konami couldn't file a lawsuit against them.
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as i said on a differnt voard
im relitivly certian roxor lied about having lawyers let alone actualy talking to konami _________________
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yyr Trick Member


Joined: 07 Mar 2002 Location: White Plains, NY |
162. Posted: Wed May 11, 2005 7:16 pm Post subject: |
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Cutriss wrote: | And then two pages later... yyr wrote: | and I know this isn't a link to CNN or anything, but... do you believe the word of an admin? | And what am I? Chopped liver? |
oh. oops. Hi, admin! =)
::runs:: _________________
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Loogaroo Trick Member


Joined: 06 Feb 2002 Location: Glendale, CA |
163. Posted: Wed May 11, 2005 7:20 pm Post subject: |
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This ranks right up with EA's exclusivity deal with the NFL as one of most bone-headed moves in the industry as far as PR is concerned. They haven't made an arcade DDR mix in two and a half years, their American counterparts have been all but apathetic about fans of the DDR series as evidenced by an incredibly mediocre console version of DDR Extreme, and now they swoop in when another company uses their cabinet for their own game - something that's been happening since the dawn of arcade gaming, mind you - and try to squash them.
I don't even care if they have a legal basis for the suit. All this is going to generate is animosity towards Konami from the people that they would pretty much rely on if they want to keep the DDR series afloat here. So far, there have been exactly two people coming out and supporting Konami's side of this whole thing. Everyone else is pissed. Good companies don't piss of their customers en masse. _________________
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cfusionpm Trick Member


Joined: 24 Jan 2002 Location: San Diego, CA |
164. Posted: Wed May 11, 2005 7:24 pm Post subject: |
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psyton wrote: | http://www.ddrfreak.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=8047007#8047007
I, on April 8th wrote: |
How is ItG v1 Legal?
I ask because basically: ItG goes inside a DDR Jemma Cabinet which seems to be made by Konami. Konami, last time I checked, did not Open-Source the cabinet design. That, and ItG Freak seems to have this "Legality: Do not bother us with questions about legality" attitude (and their faq isn't up yet).
Did Roxor get an OK/license from Konami to design against the Jemma design and put it in old cabinets? Or is Roxor just trying to exploit some sort of strange "well, these aren't made for use outside japan anyways..." illegal machine immigration loophole (so what happens if you put it on a DDR US machine?)
I can understand the idea for yet another dancey game being OK, but they are cannibalizing the machine from a prior game, I guess it'd be OK if they paid Konami to do it, but I haven't seen anything saying as such.
Rampant Speculation
I think that Roxor was just going ahead and seeing if the concept would take off, now that they know there is a market for arcade mixes that aren't > 2 years old, they are gonna up production. But lookee, they are now actually having another company build new cabinets for ItG ver2... Then, if Konami does up and sue, the ~100 machines that were cannibalized will just instantly become unsupported after the cease and desist order is filed against Roxor.
The other thing is: Konami could just be biding their time and waiting to eat Roxor after they get established... or sue them if they become more of a threat.
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Now,after posting this in the ITG forum, I had to suffer a lot of ItG fanboys regurgitating the "Legality: Do not bother us with questions about legality" line that had been fed to them.
Now excuse me while I do my little "I was right" dance:  |
this post seems to have been missed by a lot due to the fact this thread is growing faster than a 10 year old on steroids. _________________
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Edible Bondage Tape Trick Member


Joined: 26 Jan 2002 Location: Kerri |
165. Posted: Wed May 11, 2005 7:28 pm Post subject: |
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Loogaroo wrote: | This ranks right up with EA's exclusivity deal with the NFL as one of most bone-headed moves in the industry as far as PR is concerned. They haven't made an arcade DDR mix in two and a half years, their American counterparts have been all but apathetic about fans of the DDR series as evidenced by an incredibly mediocre console version of DDR Extreme, and now they swoop in when another company uses their cabinet for their own game - something that's been happening since the dawn of arcade gaming, mind you - and try to squash them.
I don't even care if they have a legal basis for the suit. All this is going to generate is animosity towards Konami from the people that they would pretty much rely on if they want to keep the DDR series afloat here. So far, there have been exactly two people coming out and supporting Konami's side of this whole thing. Everyone else is pissed. Good companies don't piss of their customers en masse. |
i checed a few random posts and i found 3 in support
also IIDX took about two years off between arcade mixes once and look at it now
its konamis property they have a right to protect it and if they WENRT planing to make any mroe arcade mixes they might as well get some free money from someone who STOLE thier work
if they are planing a new mix they need to keep their image free from ITG (remember a lot of people who have played ITG dont like it its all a matter of opinion some people dont like DDR some dont like PIU some dont like ITG thats besides the point on what YOU like)
we of ddr freak are a minority among ddr/itg/piu most people wont even ever hear of this law suit _________________
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Gerk Trick Member


Joined: 19 Apr 2002 Location: Lemoore, CA |
166. Posted: Wed May 11, 2005 7:28 pm Post subject: |
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I know I'm not the only one patiently waiting for the world to explode as a result of this court battle. _________________
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Char Trick Member


Joined: 30 Apr 2004
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167. Posted: Wed May 11, 2005 7:29 pm Post subject: |
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cfusionpm wrote: |
this post seems to have been missed by a lot due to the fact this thread is growing faster than a 10 year old on steroids. |
Perhaps people are paying no mind because "NYER I TOLD YOU SO" isn't exactly a great post.
If you ask me, psyton has it dead wrong. It's like the DDRUK people who think the NO ASKING ABOUT DOWNLOADS rule is some evidence of guilt, as opposed to being to do with annoyance.
If you didn't have big flashing letters saying SHUT UP ABOUT LEGALITY you'd have:
"ITG is legal because [armchair lawyering]"
"NO, ITG is illegal because [armchair lawyering]"
until the heat death of the sun. We read the post already. Some people may agree with him, other may disagree. Either way, this thread is dumb enough already without you cheerleading. |
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myuglybunny Trick Member


Joined: 14 Oct 2004
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168. Posted: Wed May 11, 2005 7:33 pm Post subject: |
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Char wrote: | until the heat death of the sun. We read the post already. Some people may agree with him, other may disagree. Either way, this thread is dumb enough already without you cheerleading. |
If its so dumb then why are you reading/posting in it? If you dont like it then leave  _________________
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Gamer X Trick Member

Joined: 14 Sep 2002 Location: Out of my damn mind |
169. Posted: Wed May 11, 2005 7:37 pm Post subject: |
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I hear alot of people saying that this has nothing to do with the home version but it does!
Think about it people, the timing of the lawsuit is right before ITG console game is released. I think (just guessing) only 40% of the people here has played ITG in the arcades cause not too many carry the game. Now of those that don't carry ITG they more than likely have DDR EX so whats the best way to get EVERYBODY to play your game.....wait for it.......MAKE A HOME VERSION! Everybody here either lives near a videogame store or orders online (hell how many of you pre-ordered this game anyway). Now you just made a demand for ITG2 thats coming around the corner and more arcades will by them and even replace old DDR EX games with it or take them out completely. Konami is not dumb, they know what they are doing. Now lets the legal heads figure this thing out cause I think we're going to be in for along ride. _________________
"It takes over 200 hundreds muscles to frown but only 4 reach up slap a slippy mofo upside his head." |
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cfusionpm Trick Member


Joined: 24 Jan 2002 Location: San Diego, CA |
170. Posted: Wed May 11, 2005 7:40 pm Post subject: |
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i quoted it cuz its basically the same thing ive been saying since i first heard about itg. i'm personally laughing my ass off while i can sit back and think "i told you so" too. itg is a decently good game, i'll give em that, but i saw this comming a mile away. _________________
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Thomas Hobbes Trick Member


Joined: 20 Aug 2002 Location: San Francisco // NorCal |
171. Posted: Wed May 11, 2005 7:42 pm Post subject: |
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Blargh, I feel that Konami has all the right to sue Roxor. In fact, I'm betting that they'll win. If not, Roxor finds a way to deal with Konami outside of the court and pays royalties.
It's Konami's intellectual property. They hold the patent for the "dancing arrow game that grades you on how accurate you are in time with music". That's what got them money, and it has especially done so in the United States. They make money off of the console versions, as they have a monopoly on it.
Their profits are being endangered due to the home release of ITG. It's an oppurtune moment for them to retaliate, yet I assume they don't want to deal with releasing another arcade versions as "it's over", right? They can just sue, and hopefully Roxor will die because it's not that big of a corporation/company yet. They have Tux Racer, ITG, and soon ITG2. ITG and ITG2 probably make the most money, or will in the case of ITG2.
I feel Konami has utmost right to protect their patents and intellectual property. _________________
"I am about to take my last voyage, a great leap in the dark."
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Catastrophe Trick Member

Joined: 04 Mar 2002 Location: Worcester, MA |
172. Posted: Wed May 11, 2005 7:43 pm Post subject: Re: Patent |
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J Dogg wrote: | I don't understand this. A lot of things are protected by patents, yet we modify them all the time. Take cars for instance. People modify their cars which have tons of patents in them. Why is it ok to replace a sound system or even an engine in a car, but not the software in an arcade cabinet?
I can't think of other things w/ patents that we modify, but I know there are a lot out there. |
Customization is allowable. For example you can paint your car, install a CD player, and you can do your own repairs without the manufacturer's permission. ('Repair' is included to close a loophole. You cannot 'repair' the broken 573 board in a DDR machine by installing ITG.) So, someone's Deluxe DDR, for example, should okay. This however is probably an unacceptable use of a IIDX machine. But since it's just one machine being operated by one person (perhaps privately), Konami isn't going to take action. For that same reason, this guy is safe. However, he definitely should not consider a buissness of selling kits to build those nor should he offer to build them for other people.
Beyond customization you have modification. For example, modding your PS2 or installing enough BMW parts in your Honda such that you've now created weird-ass hybrid car. The law doesn't make this distinction, but most of the time companies care it's because you've changed the function of their device. Sony wants all PS2s to reject burned DVDs. If you alter your PS2 to play burned games or if you merely operate it in such a way that you can play burned games, then that can constitute patent infringement. (SwapMagic) But again, unless you're the RIAA, you're not going to go chase down individuals.
Now, what RoXoR did was blatently illegal. I knew it from day 1. So did other people. The automobile equivilent of ITG would be me buying a Honda, painting it, modding it with custom parts, rebranding it as the "AllenMobile", and selling it. That's totally not fair to Honda. |
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Chilly Cha Cha Trick Member

Joined: 26 Mar 2004 Location: AlbaNectaTroy, NY |
173. Posted: Wed May 11, 2005 7:49 pm Post subject: |
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FYI all -
If any documents in th e case get posted, they wll be available at http://www.txed.uscourts.gov/frci.htm which is the "Frequently Requested Cases" section of the official website for the Federal District Court for the Eastern District of Texas - http://www.txed.uscourts.gov. The Eastern District Federal Courthouse is located in Beaumont, Texas. Oddly it seems to have several intellectual property cases there based on the frequently requested page - although I am not sure as to how that number matches up with other Federal District courts. On the other hand - the Southern District of New York (Manhattan) has a ton of IP cases all the time - so take it for what it's worth. In any event, I find it curious that the lawsuit was filed in the Eastern District. By the way - in Federal Court, a lawsuit (usually a "summons" and "complaint" initiate a lawsuit) is filed first with the Court, and then it is served on the defendant (must be within 120 days after filing) - therefore, Roxor may not even have possession of the complaint against them yet. I am curious as to why Konami chose the Eastern District of Texas - I will have to do some poking around to figure that one out.
28 USC 1404:
(a) A civil action wherein jurisdiction is founded only on
diversity of citizenship may, except as otherwise provided by law,
be brought only in (1) a judicial district where any defendant
resides, if all defendants reside in the same State, (2) a judicial
district in which a substantial part of the events or omissions
giving rise to the claim occurred, or a substantial part of
property that is the subject of the action is situated, or (3) a
judicial district in which any defendant is subject to personal
jurisdiction at the time the action is commenced, if there is no
district in which the action may otherwise be brought.
(b) A civil action wherein jurisdiction is not founded solely on
diversity of citizenship may, except as otherwise provided by law,
be brought only in (1) a judicial district where any defendant
resides, if all defendants reside in the same State, (2) a judicial
district in which a substantial part of the events or omissions
giving rise to the claim occurred, or a substantial part of
property that is the subject of the action is situated, or (3) a
judicial district in which any defendant may be found, if there is
no district in which the action may otherwise be brought.
(c) For purposes of venue under this chapter, a defendant that is
a corporation shall be deemed to reside in any judicial district in
which it is subject to personal jurisdiction at the time the action
is commenced. In a State which has more than one judicial district
and in which a defendant that is a corporation is subject to
personal jurisdiction at the time an action is commenced, such
corporation shall be deemed to reside in any district in that State
within which its contacts would be sufficient to subject it to
personal jurisdiction if that district were a separate State, and,
if there is no such district, the corporation shall be deemed to
reside in the district within which it has the most significant
contacts.
Basically what the above means is that Roxor and or production of ITG must have some connection to Eastern Texas...
Ahha! from the official Roxor Website contact information...
Roxor Games
7793 Burnet Rd., Suite 143
Austin, TX 78757
Last edited by Chilly Cha Cha on Wed May 11, 2005 7:52 pm, edited 2 times in total |
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Edible Bondage Tape Trick Member


Joined: 26 Jan 2002 Location: Kerri |
174. Posted: Wed May 11, 2005 7:50 pm Post subject: Re: Patent |
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J Dogg wrote: | I don't understand this. A lot of things are protected by patents, yet we modify them all the time. Take cars for instance. People modify their cars which have tons of patents in them. Why is it ok to replace a sound system or even an engine in a car, but not the software in an arcade cabinet?
I can't think of other things w/ patents that we modify, but I know there are a lot out there. | [/quote]
did you knwo its illegal to put a ford engine in a chevy body _________________
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Tsuri Trick Member

Joined: 14 Oct 2003 Location: Grand Rapids, MI |
175. Posted: Wed May 11, 2005 7:58 pm Post subject: |
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Well whatever... anyhow if Konami has that much of a problem with another company placing something else in their machine they should make something new to go into them... or at least make a DECENT home mix again. DIE KONAMI! ROXOR FOREVER! |
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skie Vivid Member


Joined: 24 Jan 2002 Location: olr studios |
176. Posted: Wed May 11, 2005 8:06 pm Post subject: |
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Congrats to all my pals at DDRFreak for their shout-out in the Court Documents!  _________________
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pumahawk Trick Member


Joined: 05 Sep 2004 Location: in front of mah compy |
177. Posted: Wed May 11, 2005 8:10 pm Post subject: |
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i'm 2 sided about this, but maybe it's cuz i've never played itg (idaho doesn't have it, to my knowledge)
if this does work for konami, it just means they're gonna get pushed more and more by ppl to come out with another mix
if RoXoR wins, then i will have a chance to play itg!
i guess in a way, i'd be happier if RoXoR wins, and then konami comes out with another mix newayz, so more ddr-itg-ness for everyone! **just my 2 cents** _________________
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sfetaz Vivid Member

Joined: 02 May 2002
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178. Posted: Wed May 11, 2005 8:18 pm Post subject: |
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I would like to point out to everyone who says that most machines in America are illegal. Having a DDR Mix from Japan in this country does not violate a government criminal law. SELLING a bootleg version of a game does. Owning a version and using it for public display violates copyright and patent ownership. So when an arcade owns a bootleg DDR Extreme, they are violating the copyrights of the artists and the properties of Konami. If those artists and Konami says nothing about the issue, ITS NOT ILLEGAL. In this country a perfect example is bootleg watches. You never really saw arrests in Chinatown of NYC for the fake watches until Movado Corporation started making some noise. Then the police, on the request of Movado, starting investigating and making arrests. A law or intelectual property means nothing if not enforced by the people who created it. If the government says speeding is a crime, and do not give you a ticket for speeding, are you going to be in court for speeding? If a company makes a video game that is copied and distributed, and the company says nothing of it, who is going to sue you for doing this?
BTW one last thing, regarding the timing of this, lets not forget that Konami USED to be different subsidiaries around the world. Last month all divisions became one company. So when people say its Konami Computer Entertainment of Japan who made Extreme Arcade or Konami Computer Entertainment of Europe who made Fushion, now officially it is no longer the case. All games that come from any part of Konami in this world all are the exact same company, now known as Konami Corporation. |
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sherl0k Maniac Member


Joined: 27 Jan 2002 Location: the internet |
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